The UFO interview THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO SEE!
Abhijit: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Rationable Conversations. Today, we have a very special guest. And he's One of the guys who got me into scepticism and gave me the idea to start a podcast , which has now evolved into this. Right after we do the intro, we'll introduce him and get into talking about some multicolored young people.
Brian Dunning: I can talk about that Welcome back. We are here with Brian Dunning. welcome to the show.
Yay. Thank you for having me.
Abhijit: Considering you were one of  my first and biggest influences in the skeptic movement, I would have hoped that I had you on much sooner than we did.
Brian Dunning: I've had you on a couple of my video broadcasts. We have that covered.
Abhijit: Yeah, absolutely. It's so great to have you on. The trouble I've always had with inviting you on the show was we can talk about literally everything. You've covered ghosts and goblins one of which you have on your hoodie,
Brian Dunning: We'll get you a new one.
Abhijit: Time to order. Yes. One X more. This is very healthy American diet I'm on, I think. I just had a McDonald's burger and frie. Excellent. Very Indian though. But I had the filet of fish and the McSpicy chicken, which I don't think is anywhere else in the world because McDonald's has a very special place in its heart for us Indians.
Brian Dunning: I'm glad to know that.
Abhijit: the main reason I wanted to have you on the show is because you have recently or you're about to release a movie called the UFO movie they don't want you to see.
Brian Dunning: They don't want you to see,
Abhijit: Who is they? That's the big question.
Brian Dunning: There actually is a they. Obviously it's a joke title, right? But if you think about it... There are people who make UFO programming on TV that depend on the audience being gullible and willing to believe just about anything.
the more educated you are about astrophysics and astrobiology, the less likely you are to be interested in that programming. From a certain perspective, there actually are people who don't want people to have... science informed opinion about these matters, so The UFO movie they don't want you to see?
Yeah, it can refer to History Channel, Discovery Channel, Nat Geo, all of these networks that produce this pseudoscience programming.
Abhijit: And the government.
Brian Dunning: the government would probably rather people see this movie, so they would stop hearing accusations about hiding aliens underground
Abhijit: from what Mick West told me, he said
the government actually encouraged the whole UFO thing when it came to the Roswell crash
Brian Dunning: That's a very interesting part of history that flying saucers were in the news and when people would discover actual Government programs, like the Mogul balloon trains that were a spy device to look for Russian nuclear tests.
When that crashed in the desert they said, let's come up with a cover story. so they said, it was a flying saucer. in the early days, they would use these UFO stories as cover stories for things that people might have seen.
Abhijit: it was the other way around, that people came up with the whole UFO thing, that this must be a UFO that's crash landed, and then the government was like, go ahead, believe whatever you want
Brian Dunning: Yeah, they were happy to believe that.
I did a show on efforts by the Air Force to use It's a very complicated story because Soviet spies, who did want to find out what kinds of things the American government was testing at places like Area 51, would infiltrate some of the American UFO groups to find out, hey, have you guys gotten any photos of anything cool the UFO people thought these were flying saucers or whatever they were. The Soviets were hoping that these people might have gotten footage of American spy planes. And so they the government actually did actively promote this disinformation coming up with alien stories to hide Classified programs.
It's a fascinating part of history.
Abhijit: Is this the reason why all the UFOs have a tendency of just going to the U. S. and saying, hey?
Brian Dunning: Americans love UFOs. people say, why is it that UFOs, always seem to go to the United States? That's actually not true. When you look at just about any other country's literature in their language they all have rich UFO mythologies of their own. They've all got their most famous UFO cases.
a lot of these don't get translated into English, so people in the United States never end up hearing about them. this recent case that David Grush talked about, the whistleblower in the congressional hearing, he mentioned this 1933 UFO case. That was an old story out of Italy, and very few American ufologists had heard of it because it had never been translated into English until recently.
Abhijit: Ah, yeah, and there's a movie which is I think based in Chile or something which a friend of mine sent me talking about or was it Mexico?
Brian Dunning: I?
Abhijit: But, yeah, I can. Let me have a quick look and see what the movie is. It's very intriguing. It's just a movie trailer, really, and it seems to be starring Jamie Foxx called Moment of Contact. Sounds intriguing.
Brian Dunning: I'm not particularly interested in UFO promoting films. But you're promoting a UFO film. I'm promoting a film about astronomy and astrophysics that uses the public interest in UFOs as a springboard. I'm trying to teach science and rationalism and reach the people who are most interested in UFOs who don't have a very good science informed opinion on the subject.
So that's part of the reason why I named the film the way I did, and that's part of the reason we talk about UFOs to some degree. But really we're teaching astrophysics and astrobiology in a way that's going to improve anyone's knowledge, whatever your thoughts are on UFOs.
Abhijit: tell me more about the project and give us an overview of how the whole process started off and then we'll get into the little nitty gritties.
Brian Dunning: as Skeptoid Media, we're an educational non profit, we produce the Skeptoid Podcast, and we're always working on a documentary film, when we finished our last film, which was 2022's Science Friction it was Science Friction.
Hey, what movie should we work on next? everyone said UFO, make a movie about UFOs, that's been the subject everyone's been talking about, and so many people are interested in, because of all these congressional hearings and navy videos.
And so that's why we decided to make a film about UFOs. It's not because I have any particular interest in UFOs, but UFOs provide as good an entry As anything other subject to teach good science and teaching good science literacy is really what we're all about. there's a lot of fascinating science in the world of astrobiology and astrophysics.
When we're talking about alien life, what's the possibility of alien life ever actually coming to earth? How will we eventually reach? Other aliens in the universe, if we ever do. Are there other aliens in the universe? And how would we know that? those are a lot of very interesting questions, and they've got really cool answers.
So that's really what the movie is about. Can you give us a couple of those answers? one of the ways we would detect an alien civilization, if one exists would be by looking at exoplanets. Exoplanets are planets that are not in the solar system, our current crop of space telescopes, including the James Webb Space Telescope, are not quite good enough to do this yet, but the next generation will be they'll need to do is to resolve the atmosphere on those exoplanets. See what chemical compounds are in the atmosphere.
And the two things that we're most interested in looking for are number one, biosignatures, chemical compounds indicative of life on that planet. For example, if you looked at the earth, you would see chlorophyll. Alien astrophysicists, if they're out there, they're looking at earth right now going, oh my god, there's life all over that planet.
So we hope to see biosignatures. It's even possible that we could see technosignatures. indications that there's a technological civilization on that planet. basically smog, pollution and things like concrete and metal that cover cities.
Those actually have technosignatures that, if you were out in space looking at the earth, you would see those technosignatures in our spectrum.
Abhijit: But that would be through spectroscopy,
Brian Dunning: We need more powerful telescopes to look at the spectrum of the atmosphere and the surface of that planet.
Abhijit: All right. Kepler was trying to detect other planets through the wobble of stars and transition, which is the dip in light that comes when a planet moves across the surface of a star.
We've detected thousands of exoplanets by now, right?
Brian Dunning: Over 5, 000,
Abhijit: 5, 000. And yet we don't know which ones would harbor life. I the James Webb Space Telescope has sighting of an actual planet orbiting A star, which is the
Brian Dunning: first actual optical image.
Abhijit: Absolutely fascinating. Blows my mind. which are the telescopes that you're going to be coming up? Do we have any names yet?
Brian Dunning: Yeah, I believe the name's evolved because the projects are changing. The leading two candidates were one called LUVOIR and one called HABEX.
I believe they've combined those into one currently called LUVOIR 2 LUVOIR stands for light, ultraviolet, infrared optical, and it will combine a type of telescope designed to look directly at a star with a dot in the middle that can block out the star itself.
it's going to be much larger and much more specialized than James Webb. James Webb is better for doing general astronomy, looking at larger structures, and these will be specialized for looking at the tiniest structures.
The tiny, single exoplanet out there in space. exciting stuff.
Abhijit: Now Most of us want to believe that, we've come to earth. We've had generations of people who believe that we've already been visited. We've had science fiction movies, shows, and many people, some of my friends too, are convinced that aliens are already here and these UFO sightings are realistic.
from your perspective, why are they not realistic?
Brian Dunning: Yes, you bring up a number of important points, the first point is that we all share common ground, and we all want to meet alien neighbors. I think that's pretty much universal, except for some people who think they're going to destroy the earth, but most of us just want to, we want to meet them, we want to see them, we want to know more about them, assuming they're out there.
And then you point out that the latest survey in the United States is that some 40 percent of Americans, believe that aliens have visited the earth. That's an astonishingly high percentage. When we start looking at, okay, how are we going to meet our alien neighbors? How are we going to find them?
How are we going to be able to communicate with them? it's very important that we have a high standard of evidence for the quality of data that we accept. I talk about three or four famous UFO cases that a lot of people believe are real, that have basically just been heavily fictionalized by television shows. And we talk about why those are very bad evidence, and why we need a higher standard of evidence. That's how we're going to prove that we've encountered aliens, by having strong evidence.
And I think that's also another place for common ground. We all agree that we want the evidence to be good. We don't want the evidence to be bad. We do debunk three or four cases in the film, but it's for the much more important purpose of understanding why those are terrible evidence and how we find better evidence.
Abhijit: And of course, you've done a huge number of debunkings on your show, on the Skeptoid Podcast, which have usually turned out to be very indistinct, unclear imagery, or outright scams,
Brian Dunning: you find all types, everything from deliberate hoaxes, to just bad evidence that people interpret as aliens because they want it to be aliens and they're so invested in the idea that these are aliens that they want to interpret almost anything as aliens.
Abhijit: There was one very important thing a friend of mine contacted me, after my interview with Mick West, he watched the video a hardcore skeptic, militant even when it comes to atheism you've done a lot of shows where you've asked your listeners to write in about experiences that they've had and can't explain, which I think is a fantastic idea, it helps people come to terms with what they've seen and things they've been wondering about for their whole lives. in that fashion, I would like to ask you this gentleman, swears that around the age of eight, he saw what we've now commonly seen as this triangular shaped UFO It's three lights or an array of lights shaped in a triangle What do we know about these kinds of UFOs. What could they be? he is convinced it could not be any natural phenomenon What do you think?
Brian Dunning: This is a difficult case. First of all, because he was eight years old, this is an extremely old memory.
the one thing we know for an absolute fact is that memories change dramatically over time. So what he tells us is a very unreliable account. it's a personal anecdote, so it's unreliable from a number of ways. I'm sure that his memory is a genuine one, that he believes is true.
As for why what he remembers is a triangle, a triangle UFO was put into the public consciousness in the 1990s. There was a huge wave of UFO sightings in Belgium that made worldwide news. there was one photograph that came out of this, of a big black triangle with a bright light at each of the three corners.
ever since then, triangular UFOs have been featured in movies, TV shows, The X Files, The black triangle UFO is a popular character, and it all goes back to this Belgium case. The guys who made that black triangle out of styrofoam and put three flashlights in the corners to hoax the news, came out years later. they said, here's the model, here's the lights we put in the corners, here's how we hung it up in the warehouse in our office, and here's how we took the photograph. Now the fact that it was a hoax doesn't matter. What matters is it was placed into the public consciousness. So if anyone does remember seeing... A TV show or anything like that, as early as the 1990s, I believe was when this happened, then it's probable they've got a memory of seeing a black triangle UFO. for this particular gentleman's report, we don't have enough information to make any conclusion but it's reasonable this is just a false memory because... Black triangles have been in the consciousness for so long.
Abhijit: Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. there are all sorts of things that we have a tendency of seeing especially when we're children and these memories get warped and changed. the weird thing is we are absolutely convinced that these are accurate memories.
I can still remember certain incidences that I can swear were absolutely accurate and I feel like I've held on to them for the last 20 or 30 years very accurately, but I know it's really weird and annoying we're all resistant to the idea that any of our memories could be wrong, but they often are, more often than not, and about more things than you can imagine.
I have had these conversations with so many friends, when I'm convinced that such and such thing happened, they are convinced that it didn't happen that way, it feels like I lived through that experience. It's so freaky.
But another thing that I've understood from, listening to a lot of Neil deGrasse Tyson's podcasts and, videos is that have such Massive amounts of space between stars that even traveling at light speed, would take hundreds of years to reach. maybe life is not common enough that we have anything within say 50 light years of Earth or even a hundred light years from Earth. But as it's physically impossible to travel at the speed of light, only something massless like a photon or an electron can travel at that speed.
Of course, we don't know whether there's an alien species that can bend the laws of physics and be able to fly through space like Star Trek warp drives which I think somebody, thought up after the fact actually creating it, but I don't know
Brian Dunning: we talk about that in the movie, we talk to astrophysicists about, it's a very common belief for people to say, aliens are smarter than us, therefore, the laws of physics don't apply to them, and they can do anything, they're magic. There are very good mathematical arguments against that, and we talk to astrophysicists about that in the movie.
Abhijit: and that's the tricky part, because they have to abide by the laws of physics. even if they do, it's going to take hundreds or thousands of years for them to reach us.
Why they'd want to reach us in the first place we have to be realistic that we're not that amazing, but we are, quite egotistical as a race. want to know us.
Brian Dunning: I know that we would want to, in any alien race at all, learn everything about them. We would be fascinated. And I suspect that it's more likely that way for the aliens, as well. If there's a civilization out there that they were able to get in touch with I think they'd make every effort to do it.
Abhijit: optimistically, absolutely. I think they would we are already trying to find these signs of life. Every spare piece of currency across the planet that we can, different countries focusing their radio telescopes, their other telescopes, even amateur astronomers, which have got their radars out there looking for science. I think SETI had that project for a while, combing through the data that their radio telescopes were picking up for signs of life. the only plausible thing that, might have some validity is that they've sent probes, inanimate probes that can be traveling through space for hundreds of thousands of years without the need for, sleeping resting or procreating
Maybe they would be procreating on the way, multiplying in numbers. but I don't for example, we are having so much trouble even sending humans to the moon or humans to Mars. And we have to account for not only the human lifespan, but the effects of zero gravity on your body, the effects of social interactions in closed spaces for long periods of time with the same people.
Things can get hairy for intelligent beings, whether they have a human lifespan, they would have to think about cosmic waves, the effects of zero gravity on their bodies, Maybe even relativity, if they're traveling at those speeds, micrometeorites for thousands of years. who knows what you're going to be hit by when you've been traveling for thousands of years in space. by the time you reach your destination, which is another thing people have contested if these are aliens, and they've been traveling for hundreds of light years why would they just come to earth and crash?
That just doesn't make sense. these guys in the Congress. I watched this entire thing. I did speed it up a little bit, but I watched the entire thing. Did you watch the entire Congress hearing for this?
Brian Dunning: I scrolled to all the witnesses whose comments I were interested in hearing.
Abhijit: This Grusch fella. reminds me of some people I know, who seems very confident about what he's saying, and then he says absolutely nothing. Everything is, I can say it behind closed doors. But pretty much all of the information he has is from secondhand sources, right?
Brian Dunning: in most cases it's probably third and fourth hand sources of stories that were never good stories to begin with. He only mentioned two stories that we could identify confidently One of them was Roswell, and That's been thoroughly debunked for decades.
the other one was this 1933 crash from Italy, which was a hoax to begin with. all the details, he mentioned on his NewsNation interview, were added by a man who had nothing to do with it, was quite probably schizophrenic, and whose whole career was writing to UFO authors, saying, here's a whole bunch of extra information about this story.
So David Grush appears to be gullible. he has a long history with a lot of these UFO personalities, so we know that he's been a UFO believer for a long time, and he just seems to basically believe everything that confirms his preferred worldview, which is that aliens actively visit the Earth.
Because he was a military veteran, people say, Oh, he can't be wrong. Military veterans are unimpeachable witnesses. Whatever they say is true.
Abhijit: And including the Navy pilot, what was his name?
Brian Dunning: You had Fravor and Graves
Abhijit: So Fravor's sightings, especially, what is it the infrared cam, FLIR cam. FLIR. and go fast. And these ones that we, I talked to Mick West about these, where they're very clearly infrared flares. Those aren't really UFOs. they seem to be exhausts of other planes, which doesn't seem to carry any weight whatsoever when it comes to any of these.
And of course, his experiences were all back in the nineties, right?
Brian Dunning: these are very old stories, Fravor, if you look at the interviews he's given on various podcasts and YouTube channels.
He's clearly someone who believes in alien visitation. his wingman Alex Dietrich, said the entire event was something like 5 seconds long. He sees something for 5 seconds that he doesn't know what he's looking at on his screen, and therefore, it's aliens. He tends to see aliens in everything he hears about.
Abhijit: Exactly. And I just, I watched I recently, just earlier this evening, actually, I watched this video which has been making its rounds. this was just two months ago.
it shows, on History Channel. A video of this little silver ball, which apparently flies super fast between two jets and all over the news. And I looked at that, I was like, that just looks like one of those helium balloons.
some of them have metallic, shiny outer coatings to help them regulate their temperature or something of that sort.
Brian Dunning: You're talking about Mylar balloons.
Abhijit: Yes, exactly. And it's literally, a smudge with a smaller smudge on it.
There's really nothing on it. all the experts in the shows, say, 100 percent UFO. Couldn't be anything else. When it could very obviously, be a balloon.
But then that is immediately pooh poohed away
Brian Dunning: When I was a kid, we used to do a lot of sailing off the Southern California coast, and there was a cruise ship line that would go through one of the shipping channels with cruise ships all the time.
every time a cruise ship went by, they would leave this incredible debris trail of oil, slicks, and garbage in the water, and Mylar party balloons. Everywhere. we had radar on our sailboat, and the Mylar party balloons, absolutely show up on radar. Mylar is what a radar reflector is made of.
When you're a sailboat, you hoist a radar reflector up to the top of your mast, so that other ships can see you. Mylar party balloons are very common over the oceans, and they do show up on radar, and if you fly past them really fast, they look like some big, silvery, shiny orb. Someone was able to freeze frame one of these videos, taken by an F 18 fighter that whooshed past a silver thing And on the freeze frame, you could actually tell that it was a familiar Batman balloon that was sold on Amazon. And it was presented as evidence of alien visitation. This is what we're talking about when we have a low standard for the quality of evidence that we accept. If you fail to eliminate a Batman party balloon from the possibilities, you're not doing good science. you're failing to falsify your evidence.
Abhijit: This is the same as ghost hunters seeing orbs slash dust particles, which come in front of your infrared camera light and or rods, which are basically bugs flying past the lens we had gone to Ladakh, which is in the Himalayas very into the very northern parts of India very high altitudes because we'd gone there for astrophotography, this was in July. it's a stunning place. If you ever come to this side of the world, that is one of the places you got to go.
It's absolutely stunning. And we have probably the highest observatory in Asia there, which is at 14, 000 feet. we went to that observatory. It was very nice. We had a look around. Unfortunately, every night it was always cloudy. the clearest thing that we could see was Elon Musk's Starlink satellites marching one after another.
everybody was very excited because this is the first time we've seen it, A couple of nights in a row several people in our group, they're taking pictures, pointing straight up, long exposures, and would see this weird line across their image. they're like, what could that be? I looked at it, and I was like, it's a bug. What? We didn't see any bugs? yeah, that's because you've got a long exposure, wide open aperture camera pointing straight up, this is just a bug doing its rounds, wandering across your lens, reflecting some of the light that you're picking up from other sources They're like, no, that can't be a bug. What else is going to be?
Brian Dunning: Bugs and birds are two other superstars of UFO reports. We have an air traffic controller and a pilot who both make this point that you cannot judge the size or distance of a point you see in the sky.
If you see a dot, It prevents any observer from being able to tell how far away it is. Something close and slow looks exactly the same as something far and fast. if you see a bug flying around that looks exactly the same as if it was a UFO flying 10, 000 miles an hour, 5 miles away.
And this is another thing that people insist that it was far away, you can't know that. that's geometry, that's not training,
Abhijit: perception, because you have no points of reference, especially when you're flying.
There is no way to determine, especially at those altitudes, how far away anything is. one thing demonstrated in Ladakh is that because the atmosphere is so thin up there, 14, 000 feet, 16, 000 feet, even 18, 000 feet there are mountain ranges you can see way off into the distance.
And you have absolutely no concept of how far away they are, even though you're on land, because the atmospheric haze just isn't as much as you're used to in the plains. It's just this air is so thin, you can see for tens of miles and do not understand how big things are until you see a tiny dot moving across the surface of a mountain, and he's Oh shit, is that a car? Oh, it's a bus!
Brian Dunning: So the astronauts who were on the moon talked about this. They would see hills that they knew to be tens of miles away, and it looked like it was 50 yards away. Because, there's no clearer atmosphere than on the moon.
You just judge distances at all. Absolutely.
Abhijit: And to think that there are actually people out there who think birds don't exist. Have you seen this?
Brian Dunning: That's a joke. there may be some people who bought into it, who saw other people talking about it and decided that must be a thing.
But it was started as a joke. by a guy who was making fun of conspiracy theorists. Really? Actually, the Wikipedia page on that tells a pretty good version of the story.
Abhijit: I think Susan Gerbic has been responsible for putting that one. At least somebody from her team, from the Guerrilla Skeptics,
Brian Dunning: She could well be, yes.
Abhijit: What's up next for Skeptoid?
Brian Dunning: We're not sure what movie we're gonna do next now that this one is finished. we've got a lot of housekeeping stuff we've gotta take care of. We're still working on the weekly Skeptoid podcast.
I just recorded an episode this morning. We're developing other programming. We're trying to come up with some new podcasts that we're gonna produce as well. the next movie, I hope to get it started probably next year in 2024. not quite sure what it's going to be about yet, but we're always very busy here.
We've got four full time people and a couple of volunteers. we've been growing our board of directors and working on some grant proposals It's busy. It doesn't leave me as much time as I wish I had for doing projects.
Abhijit: One thing I got to tell you, your YouTube channel, The Feeding Tube, and InFact, you need to increase the frequency of those because those are...
Brian Dunning: I know that we need to rebuild the business models for those and relaunch both of those series. it's something we absolutely plan to do, but we're just spread too thin right now.
I've been trying to find Science Friction so I can watch it on TV, and it's not on any of the Indian streaming services. Where else can we find it? It should be on the website, right?
Yeah, if you go to sciencefriction. tv all the streaming options should be listed there. Off the top of my head I couldn't tell you which ones might be available in India. There should be one for Vimeo and Vimeo is available worldwide. You can see it on Vimeo on demand.
Abhijit: Wonderful. And the same for the UFO movie?
Brian Dunning: UFO movie is, only available on Vimeo right now. But it's pending to appear on Amazon Prime.
I think that's only gonna be US and UK. it's also pending to appear on Tubi TV. Vimeo will always be an option for everyone. the UFO movie, is available to watch right now, and that website is theufo.movie, you can actually go to theufo.movie, and you can link right to it and watch the trailers and all that stuff.
Abhijit: everybody, please go watch that. before we wrap up, I know you're tight on time. what was the birth of the Skeptoid podcast? How did that start?
Brian Dunning: My college background was writing for film and TV. I took writing for film and television at UCLA.
I was always interested in science, but I couldn't really do both in college, so that's the direction I chose But I never really worked in the field. it wasn't until much later that podcasts came out, I learned what a podcast was, started listening to a couple, and I said, Oh my gosh, there is finally the perfect opportunity for me to combine my interests, the entertainment aspect of making some programming and the science aspect of making some programming about science.
That's how it got started. It was just an opportunity that fell in my lap because podcasts became a thing. I took five subjects. That were pet peeves of mine, pseudosciences that people believed. At the time, this is 2006, you had to have five episodes of your podcast to get listed on iTunes.
So I made five episodes, got it listed on iTunes, and it took off from there. I honestly didn't think I was going to continue doing it. I thought it was going to be just a one time little hobby, but people responded, people loved it, people started sending me episodes, idea. Ideas and it grew and became my full time job in 2010.
2012 it became a non profit. And here we are today doing the same thing I'm very lucky to be able to get to do this for a living. I love it more than anything.
Abhijit: It's just those bite sized, which is something I really want to get back to.
I started off with a bite sized podcast inspired by Skeptoid, but I really want to get back into those bite sized, 10 15 minute long video slash podcasts that get across that really in depth deep dive information about what is the most important things to know about each topic.
the good thing is you have topics that are basically not going to get old. This is not about trending or anything of that sort.
Brian Dunning: I don't do any current events. The idea is for the episodes to be timeless. You can sit and binge 15 years of Skeptoid and all the episodes are as relevant as they ever were.
Abhijit: Yeah, which is in a way, a little discouraging, but at the same time very informative. I binge 10, 15 episodes at a go every now and then, whenever I'm going for a nice long drive. I'm glad you're out there doing what you're doing and thanks for inspiring me and everybody else who's been listening to you
Brian Dunning: Thank you very much.
Abhijit: And it was a pleasure meeting you for the first time in 2018 in CSICon I was like, Oh, it's Brian dunning.
Brian Dunning: And then you were disappointed.
Abhijit: I get very jealous of Richard Saunders who keeps boasting about how much beer and whiskey he's guzzling with you. next time I come in, We're going to hang out and get blitzed.
Brian Dunning: I look forward to that very much. Got your guest room ready.
Abhijit: Thank you so much for joining us. Next time we're going to be talking about ghosts and cryptids. So you and Kenny Biddle are on the next run up.
thank you everybody for joining us on Rationable Conversations with Brian Dunning from the Skeptoid Podcast and Skeptoid. com. Please check it out. listen to his podcast. Watch the videos. on YouTube. I'll put all the links down below. if you like this conversation, please give it a if you didn't like it, give it a dislike and tell me why until next time, be rationable and subscribe. See ya.